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1.- The Royal intitulatio establishes that they were both Kings of Aragon, including Joanna. You can see this intitulatio in this page, and more specifically in [1], [2] and [3]. For example:

(Apr 1516) Doña Juana y don Carlos su hijo, reina y rey de Castilla, de León, de Aragón, de las Dos Sicilias, de Jerusalén, de Navarra, de Granada, de Toledo, de Valencia, de Galicia, de Mallorca, de Sevilla, de Cerdeña, de Córdoba, de Córcega, de Murcia, de Jaén, de los Algarves, de Algeciras, de Gibraltar, de las islas Canarias, de las Islas, Indias y Tierra Firme del mar Océano, &c.

(Apr 1542) Carolus , Divina favente clemencia, Romanorum imperator, semper augustus, Rex Germaniae; Joanna, eius mater, et idem Carolus, Dei gratia, Reyes Castelle, Aragonum utriusque, Siciiae, Hierusalem, Ungariae, Dalmatiae, Croatie, Legionis, Navarrae, Granatae, Toleti, Valenciae,Gallecie, Maiosicarum, Hispalis, Sardiniae, Corsicae, Murciae, Gienis, Algarbic, Algezirae, Gibraltaris, inscularum Cunariae nec non Indiarum insularum et terre firme mares oceani, &c.

If she was not queen of Aragon, why does she show up as queen in the royal titles?

2.- Joanna's name appears with her son Charles' name in the Aragonese coins. Please see this coin [4] You will see the legend +IOANA ET KAROLVS REX ARAGON and this coin from Saragossa (1520). How is explained that in the Aragonese coins, Joanna and Charles should appear together?. The fact is that the institutions recognized them as kings to mint them in the coins.

3.- It is true that Aragonese Fueros did not permit inheritance by females, but it was allowed to their sons the inheritance. But in 1502, the Kingdom of Aragon did an exception with the princess Joanna, and they swore her as heiress of her father King Fernando II, thereby she was Princess of Girona. Nevertheless, this oath was an exception, and the Aragonese Cortes did not change the Fueros
«Que los quatro Braços de la Corte general deste Reyno, avida entre si deliberación y diligente examen, por ellos y por sus sucessores juravan por Dios sobre la Cruz de Nuestro Señor Jesu Christo y los Santos quatro Evangelios delante dellos puestos, y por ellos y cada uno dellos manualmente tocados, a la Ilustrísima Señora Doña Juana, Princesa y Archiduquesa, primogénita, fija legítima y natural del Señor Rey, que la tenían y tendrían, avían y avrían en y por primogénita de Aragón durante la larga y bienaventurada vida del Señor Rey, y después de sus bienaventurados días, en Reina y por Reina y Señora suya natural, y que como a tal la obedecerían y guardarían fidelidad de la manera sobredicha, como vasallos naturales devían y eran tenidos, y assí mesmo al Ilustrísimo Señor Don Felipe, Príncipe, Archiduque de Austria y Duque de Borgoña, como a legítimo marido de la dicha Ilustrísima Doña Juana,durante el dicho matrimonio tan solamente. Mas si a Nuestro Señor Dios placía dar al Señor Rey fijo o fijos masclos legítimos y de legítimo matrimonio procreados, que aquella jura y actos en ella contenidos fuessen avidos por no hechos».

4.- Joanna was Queen of Aragon, but she did not reign and did not govern; her son interested about keeping her locked up, since she was the legitimate queen. Though the Fueros were not allowing to reign the women, there were two exceptions, Petronila and Joanna, and they had both male children.

5.- I have added reliable sources from Spanish universities, you can see here [5], [6] and [7]. If you understand the Spanish language, you will know that I am not wrong. I added text to the article directly and explicitly supported by the cited sources. However, User:Michaelsanders delete these sources and but he neither discusses nor explains his point of view.

Trasamundo (talk) 15:39, 15 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Online sources are only to be trusted if they come from reputable sources. Reputable sources - online and published - say that Joanna was never Queen of Aragon - the succession passed directly from Ferdinand to Charles. Nor was she ever sworn allegiance to as heiress of Aragon or 'Princess of Girona', only as heiress of Castile. Michael Sanders 19:42, 15 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Furthermore, Joanna is never referred to as being 'Queen of Aragon' in established historiography, which always describes Charles as directly succeeding his grandfather. Wikipedia convention is that if you are stating anything other than the established norm, you need a reliable source to back it up. As it is, you are engaging in Original Research, drawing your own conclusions from dubious evidence to argue that the truth is other than commonly accepted facts. That is simply not on. Frankly, I don't care if Joanna was or wasn't referred to as Queen of Aragon on coins, or in a list of royal titles from a dubious source and furthermore in Spanish (I can't read Spanish, and I'd wager a fair number of contributors on English language wikipedia can't either. Whilst this does not in itself invalidate the sources, it makes them difficult for us to use) - what I care about is what is said in established historiography. That says that she was never Queen of Aragon. Nor has anyone on wikipedia apart from you ever claimed she was Queen of Aragon, or that Charles did not directly succeed Ferdinand II, and I'm not buying that we all simply didn't notice what would be a very major oversight.

So, to put it simply: Aragon, unlike the male-preference primogeniture systemed Castile, allowed succession through but not of females. Ferdinand tried to bequeath Aragon to his grandson Ferdinand but eventually left it to Charles. Charles succeeded in Aragon, and then became co-King in Castile with Joanna. Joanna was never, ever, Queen of Aragon. Michael Sanders 20:53, 15 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

:::Joanna, King of Aragon (instead of Queen regnant)? What? GoodDay (talk) 02:05, 16 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

So when King Ferdinand II of Aragaon died in 1516, his grandson only succeeded him (not his daughter Joanna, who was already Queen of Castile). GoodDay (talk) 02:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Exactly. Michael Sanders 03:05, 16 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

No, by no means!

User:Michaelsanders does not engage in affirming the veracity of his theories but in denigrating my theories. He thinks that the truth is the commonly accepted facts, for me it is to contribute with real proofs.

1.- I contribute primary sources, Michaelsanders doesn't. He says that I put a list of royal titles from a dubious source, but perhaps does the Municipal archive of Cordova lie with this letter of privilege (1538)?. We are able to read
Don Carlos, por la divina clemencia, Emperador de los romanos, augusto rey de Alemania. Doña Juana su madre, y el mismo Don Carlos, por la gracia de Dios reyes de Castilla y León, de Aragón, de las dos Sicilias, de Jerusalén, de Navarra...
. How do you explain that the queen Juana should have the queen's title of Aragon?, for a pity? so, for example, why did she not have the title of Empress of the Romans?.

The list of royal titles is not the list of the purchase, this list says those who do the laws. The acceptable unique thing is that by law Joanna had the royal title of Aragon, and you, Michaelsanders deny it, and you don't care that. Is this for you the verifiability?.

I contribute coins also, they aren't medals, [8] and [9]. Will not you hint that the coins which are actioned are false? The coins are primary sources tangible and objective, its existence is not subject to discussion since it is minted in Saragossa (the capital of Aragon) in the epoch of the reign of Juana and Carlos, and its mintage had not taken place if Juana had not been a queen, she was Queen of Aragon by law, but the institutions recognized her as queen and her effigy appears with his son's effigy; but it seems that you know more than the Aragonese institutions of this epoch, and I see queens or manikins where they do not appear.

Why do you ignore the primary sources?, Do you write the objective articles by this way?. I do not have a misconception, I contribute proofs in the suitable place and in the suitable epoch; perhaps has more veracity the book that writes a guy 550 years later?. Which explanation do you deduce of these primary sources?, are they an isolated fact?.

2.- Michaelsanders, you establish yourself that the reputables sources say that Joanna was never Queen of Aragon - the succession passed directly from Ferdinand to Charles. I don't know if the reputables sources are British, but in Spain nobody doubts that she was a queen of Castile and Aragon with her son, so:

Ernest Belenguer with his book El imperio hispánico (1479-1665) (Ed Grijalbo Montadori, pag 143) mentions that Carlos is sworn together in Aragon with his mother (I do not have permission to reproduce the text).

Martyn Rady with his book Carlos V (Ed Altaya. pag 21) mentions that Charles was proclaimed king of Castile and Aragon, co-ruler with his mother.

Joseph Pérez (president of University of Bordeaux), inside Historia de España, vol 5, directed by es:Manuel Tuñón de Lara (ed.Labor, pag 169) mentions:
Según el testamento de la reina Isabel le correspondía ahora al hijo mayor de Juana, Carlos de Gante, que a la sazón residía en Flandes, hacerse cargo del gobierno con simple título de regente; así se lo explicó el Cardenal Cisneros en nombre del Consejo Real [...] Ahora bien, los consejeros flamencos de don Carlos tenían otras miras; juzgaron más conveniente que Carlos recibiera desde entonces el título de rey de Castilla y Aragón, "juntamente con la católica reina", doña Juana. No hay que andarse con rodeos: la decisión de Bruselas era totalmente ilegal; se trata de un verdadero golpe de estado que Cisneros y el Consejo Real aceptaron [...]. (According to the testament of Queen Isabel, it was corresponding now to the older son of Juana, Carlos of Ghent, who was residing in Flanders at that time, to take charge of the government with simple title of regent; thus Cardinal Cisneros explained him in name of the Royal Council [...] Don Carlos' Flemish advisors judged more suitable than Carlos received the title of king of Castile and Aragón since then, "together with the catholic queen", Dona Juana. The decision of Brussels was totally illegal; it is real coup d’état that Cisneros and the Royal Council accepted)

I believe that you deduce your own conclusions when these wonderful reputables sources do not say anything of Juana as queen of Aragon, and you think that she was not queen by no means. When your sources do not say anything, they do not want to say that neither should say yes nor should say not. You are the one that you imagine.

Why your reliable sources ignore of these specifications? The truth is very simple. A book of history pays attention on the important subjects, but no historian focuses his attention on the period 1516-1518 in Aragon (not this way in Castile), since this period does not affect for anything the development of the reign of Carlos I, it is easier to say that after Fernando II's death his grandson was came to the power and swore the laws of the kingdoms, but it is not developed the legal tricks, because these tricks do not affect Carlos' reign in Aragon in anything, while his mother was in Tordesillas. But in Spain there are researchers (investigators) who read the primary sources and they write very specific essays about what they have gathered; and it is logical that the essays are in Spanish if the unique persons that they gather the specific essays are Spaniards.

I am not the guilty if historians are not interesting in the the period of 1516-1518 in Aragon at all, but if some studies exist which light the matter, I transmit it for the common knowledge; however, you impede that somebody has knowledge of these sources, so you prevent from changing the commonly accepted facts. I contribute unknown information for the common public and you, Michaelsanders are censuring it. You spread an official history and you deny everything in what you are not interested. You are closed of mind, you affirm that you do not know the Spanish, and instead of opening your thought for new researches, you eliminate them.

If you wanted to extend your knowledge you would look for other persons who knew Spanish and you would confirm these sources, and you would not eliminate it, but I believe that you consider yourself to be the guardian of the knowledge, and you delete everything what is not inside your personal orthodoxy.

I don't have draw own conclusions, I have transmitted researchers' conclusions who have acceded to primary sources and have written what they have seen. You must understand that these essays are very specific and they do not treat of general historiography but they treat history of the Law, and they do not concern in anything the development of the established facts.

3.-You affirm that she was not sworn allegiance to as heiress of Aragon or 'Princess of Girona', only as heiress of Castile. In this essay (pag 137) quotes «El derecho de sucesión al trono en la Corona de Aragón (The right of succession to the throne in the Crown of Aragon) from es:Anuario de Historia del Derecho Español, where es:Alfonso García-Gallo gathers the Princess Joanna's oath in Cortes of Aragon assembled in Saragossa in 1503:
«Que los quatro Braços de la Corte general deste Reyno, avida entre si deliberación y diligente examen, por ellos y por sus sucessores juravan por Dios sobre la Cruz de Nuestro Señor Jesu Christo y los Santos quatro Evangelios delante dellos puestos, y por ellos y cada uno dellos manualmente tocados, a la Ilustrísima Señora Doña Juana, Princesa y Archiduquesa, primogénita, fija legítima y natural del Señor Rey, que la tenían y tendrían, avían y avrían en y por primogénita de Aragón durante la larga y bienaventurada vida del Señor Rey, y después de sus bienaventurados días, en Reina y por Reina y Señora suya natural, y que como a tal la obedecerían y guardarían fidelidad de la manera sobredicha, como vasallos naturales devían y eran tenidos, y assí mesmo al Ilustrísimo Señor Don Felipe, Príncipe, Archiduque de Austria y Duque de Borgoña, como a legítimo marido de la dicha Ilustrísima Doña Juana, durante el dicho matrimonio tan solamente. Mas si a Nuestro Señor Dios placía dar al Señor Rey fijo o fijos masclos legítimos y de legítimo matrimonio procreados, que aquella jura y actos en ella contenidos fuessen avidos por no hechos».

(That 4 estates of the Court of this Kingdom swear by God ... to missis dona Joanna ... legitimate child of the Mister King, that they would have it ... for first-born of Aragon during the life of the King and after his days, in Queen and as to such they will obey and guard loyalty)

You affirm that Ferdinand tried to bequeath Aragon to his grandson Ferdinand but eventually left it to Charles. This is false.

The same essay says (pag 142):
En su testamento don Fernando había nombrado a Carlos Gobernador General, título de gobierno que tenían por ley únicamente los primogénitos de la Corona tras jurar los fueros, dejando la administración de los reinos hasta la llegada del príncipe al arzobispo de Zaragoza, Alonso de Aragón, nombrado además Lugarteniente General.

(In his testament don Fernando had appointed to Carlos Gobernador-General, title of government that took by law solely the first-born of Corona (Kings) after swearing the fueros, leaving the administration of the kingdoms until the arrival of prince to the archbishop of Saragossa, Alonso de Aragón, named in addition General Lugarteniente).

The same source says (pag 145) quotes cited es:Alfonso García-Gallo where gathers Carlos' oath before the Cortes of Aragon:
«Havida entre nosotros deliberación, por nosotros y nuestros sucesores juramos por Dios sobre la Cruz de Nuestro Señor Jesu Christo y los santos quatro Evangelios, delante de nosotros puestos e por nosotros e cada uno de nos manual y corporalmente tocados, a vosotros los Muy Altos, Muy Cathólicos y Muy Poderosos Príncipes y Señores, Doña Juana y Don Carlos, su hijo primogénito, por la gracia de Dios reyes de Castilla, de Aragón, etc.; por reyes y señores nuestros conregnantes en el dicho Reyno de Aragón; e que vos havemos y tenemos, havremos y ternemos por reyes, en reyes y señores nuestros naturales, et que de aquí adelante obedeceremos e guardaremos fidelidad a Vuestras Altezas, así como a reyes y señores conregnantes en el dicho Reyno, e como vasallos naturales deben e son tenidos servir fidelidad y obediencia».

(We swore by God ... to you ... Dona Juana and Don Carlos, her first-born son, by the grace of God kings of Castile, Aragón, etc, for our kings and our overlord reigning jointly in this Kingdom of Aragón and that we will take you as Kings).

Nevertheless, for Michaelsanders neither Revista General de Información y Documentación (General journal of Information and Documentation) of Universidad complutense de Madrid (Complutensian university of Madrid), nor Anuario del Derecho Español (Yearbook of the Spanish Law), nor es:Manuel Tuñón de Lara are realiable sources. He agrees as God's word the Sixteenth Century Journal', Incredible! Who has granted him the faculty to give legitimacy to the English sources and to the Spaniards not? Are not the Spanish teachers-researchers of Spanish universities reputable sources?

It seems that he drinks of the sources of the truth, but he does not know Spanish language and he censures and he discredits everything what is not molded to his knowledge.

4.- You say that nobody on wikipedia apart from me ever claimed Joanna was Queen of Aragon, or that Charles did not directly succeed Ferdinand II. But in Wikipedia in Spanish nobody doubts that she was a queen of Aragon, and in Wikipedia in Italian, which is a featured article, indicates also that she was a queen of Aragon.

Probably for Michaelsanders the only wikipedia that exists is in English language, where he has despised of the Spanish historiography the Spanish researches, by his denominated reputed sources.

Michaelsanders only repeats again and again that established historiography always describes Charles as directly succeeding his grandfather, but he does not explain how it is possible. I contribute some proofs and he discredits them because he is not interested in them or he does not understand them, since they are not adapted to his established scheme.

5.- Michaelsanders says that Charles succeeded in Aragon, and then became co-King in Castile with Joanna. Joanna was never, ever, Queen of Aragon.

I propose another source that Sanders certainly will deny because it is not trustworthy, It is the Britannica Online Encyclopedia, this page, indicates that Juana was queen of Castile (from 1504) and of Aragon (from 1516). Am I the rare guy?. So, the fact is that you have the particular vision and not I. And if you are so sure why don't you submit to a third opinion?, I do not have any problem. I already have written everything what I must say. Trasamundo (talk) 01:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps it's this way: In 1516 upon Ferdinand's death, Joanna & Charles became co-monarchs of Aragon. Charles became co-monarch of Castile (joining Joanna, who began her reign there, in 1504). GoodDay (talk) 01:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

It isn't. I don't care what books you aren't allowed to quote say, and I don't care how many 'theories' you present, how much Original Research you indulge in, how open your mind is to 'new researches'. Nor do I particularly care how much you accuse me of being 'closed-minded', etc. What I will say is:

1). Articles written on the basis of personal research into primary sources is strongly discouraged, particularly if you draw new and original conclusions. You have conducted such research, and drawn such conclusions. You say yourself: "He thinks that the truth is the commonly accepted facts, for me it is to contribute with real proofs" and "I contribute unknown information for the common public" - Well, that's a statement of Original Research if ever there was one.

2). Preferring secondary over primary sources is a fundamental concept of wikipedia. I have no idea why Joanna might have been juxtaposed with Charles in Aragon - nor will I commit Original Research by speculating - and I don't care. All I care is what secondary sources, which don't have the obvious degrees of bias and misinformation, have to say. That's how objective articles are written.

3) The only book you quote (possibly due to your translation) gives an ambiguous impression, but appears to apply only to Castile (mention of Isabella's will), and says that "Carlos received the title of king of Castile and Aragón since then, "together with the catholic queen", Dona Juana" - which, again perhaps due to your translation, is ambiguous, since it could just apply to Castile. Frankly, I prefer the specific statement in my source that he directly succeeded in Aragon.

4) Online sources are considered inferior to published sources - anyone can post a webpage.

5) Perhaps my 'reliable sources' ignore these specifications because your supposed specifications are fictional?

6)Again, you're using webpages to prove your point. Web-sources are not appropriate in controversial points. Sources such as the Sixteenth Century Journal are appropriate - that is a reputable published source, and because it's in English, other editors can investigate the sources to ensure that they say what the editor is claiming to say. That's not the case if you are obfuscating by using a different language.

7) You can't argue that a point is true because other people on wikipedia do it. You can argue that, because since the inception of this article about 4 years ago no-one has claimed she was 'Queen of Aragon', it indicates that nobody has either thought to add it or considered it's exclusion strange. It's not conclusive proof, merely a suggestive indication of what editors expect to see.

8) Britannica is not infallible. Again, published historiography indicates that she was not Queen of Aragon. But then, since her Britannica article is only 302 words, it's pretty easy to accept that the writers did not put a particularly intensive degree of effort into it - so perhaps they made a mistake?

9)The fact that I can't read Spanish does not invalidate me from editing articles on Spanish history. Merely from editing Spanish wikipedia. Perhaps you should consider the same vis a vis English wikipedia? Michael Sanders 21:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

I request excuses to write and to express so badly in English, since you, User:Michaelsanders, have understood little of which I want to say, I am going to try it better:

1.- Original Research

I do not elaborate neither original research nor not original. After discussing the subject of the beginning of the reign of Joanna and Charles in Aragon, because in the Spanish historiography the commonly accepted facts are that both were co-kings in Castile and Aragon, and after accepting the agreements in the Spanish wikipedia, I put this information in the English Wikipedia, and you say that is not correct, you say that you have other sources, and in addition you insist on looking for each coma and each dot written by me to induce that I implement original researches, and deleting me.

These ideas that I try to defend are not neither new nor original for the historiography in Spain and they do not contradict to the Britannica Encyclopedia; nevertheless, it seems that for you, or perhaps (I do not know it) for the British historiography, these ideas are an atrocity. I act in consequence and I try to demonstrate what I write, that it is what is written in the Spanish wikipedia (where is also in opposition to Original Research). I try to demonstrate it with real proofs, which hit with what you defend, your Commonly accepted facts, but they are not the commonly accepted facts for Spanish historiography; and I contribute unknown information for the common public, since it specifies very precise aspects that clarify the subject that I defend (on this already I will explain afterwards).

THEREFORE, I neither have elaborated nor created nor thought nor dreamed personal research; in addition, I don't have draw own conclusions. I have only transmitted Spanish researchers' conclusions about this subject, I have transmitted the agreements adopted in the Spanish wikipedia, which I share them and I defend them, as you do with your theories. You should not affirm that what I affirm is a product of my imagination.

2.- Primary sources

In Primary source, we read: «A work on history is not likely to be taken seriously as scholarship if it only cites secondary sources, as it does not indicate that original research has been done».

I agree with you about the general conception of the primary sources, but I have not showed up subjective material as diaries, recorded notes, descriptions interviews, trials or observations, I have only showed up objective, formal material, without intention, without premeditation, without purpose, without assumptions, without suppositions, these primary sources are elaborated by law. what it is interesting in this discussion is not the content of those sources but the form whereupon appears to us, for that, I am going to use children's reasoning in primary education. I will put two examples:

- If you look at the obverse side of the British coins, anyone will see ELIZABETH II D G REG F D, if I ask who is Elizabeth II the answer is undoubtedly the Queen; and you have reason, it is not necessary to analyze anything more, and nobody needs any secondary source to know it (except you), if I take the authentic coin of Aragon in 1520 we read IOANA ET:KARLOS:DEI: GRA:R:AR / +IOANA ET KAROLVS REX ARAGON and if I ask Who are IOANA and KAROLVS, the answer is the Kings of Aragon, so, in that epoch, they knew it and in this epoch we know it also.

- If you look at s:Constitución española de 1978 or in English s:Spanish Constitution of 1978, we read (in English) «We, don Juan Carlos I, King of Spain, announce to all those who may have knowledge of this: that the Cortes have passed and the Spanish people have ratified the following Constitution», if I ask who is the King of Spain the answer is undoubtedly Juan Carlos I, and if we see this original law (1538) we read Don Carlos, por la divina clemencia, Emperador de los romanos, augusto rey de Alemania. Doña Juana su madre, y el mismo Don Carlos, por la gracia de Dios reyes de Castilla y León, de Aragón, de las dos Sicilias, de Jerusalén, de Navarra...; if I ask who is the Emperor the answer is only Carlos, but if I ask who are the kings of Castile, Leon, Aragon..., the answer is Juana and Carlos.

I have done reading comprehension. What are the bias and misinformation of the question?, probably if another person publishes this paragraphs in the " Sixteenth Century Journal " passes to be reliable for you. For rest of the world look like very simply, and now I have not speculated on the reasons.

THEREFORE: The primary sources that I have presented are not opinions or subjective versions of a point of view, they are objective and legal realities.

3.- I'm able to quote Historia de España directed by es:Manuel Tuñón de Lara (reliable source) because in the book there does not appear any prohibition of reproduction of the content. Though you think that it is ambiguous, it is clear that it is said that Carlos self-proclaimed king in Brussels illegally, so he) did not inherit any kingdom in Spain; and this is the opposite view that you affirm. You should read the last testament of Ferdinand II, inasmuch as you have so much true sources. Here you have the complete paragraph:

Y es que la situación de doña Juana en nada mejoró a la muerte del rey de Aragón, en enero de 1516. Según el testamento de la reina Isabel le correspondía ahora al hijo mayor de Juana, Carlos de Gante, que a la sazón residía en Flandes, hacerse cargo del gobierno con simple título de regente; así se lo explicó el Cardenal Cisneros en nombre del Consejo Real: «por el fallecimiento del Rey Católico, vuestro abuelo, vuestra alteza no ha adquirido más derecho de lo que antes tenía». Ahora bien, los consejeros flamencos de don Carlos tenían otras miras; juzgaron más conveniente que Carlos recibiera desde entonces el título de rey: el 14 de marzo de 1516, en Bruselas, don Carlos fue proclamado oficialmente rey de Castilla y Aragón, «juntamente con la católica reina», doña Juana. No hay que andarse con rodeos: la decisión de Bruselas era totalmente ilegal; se trata de un verdadero golpe de estado que Cisneros y el Consejo Real aceptaron para no complicar aún más la difícil situación política de Castilla, pero que causó un profundo malestar en amplios sectores del país.

If someone wants to translate it, you can take some online translator, or the Babylon, or another one.

THEREFORE: I hope that you do not continue thinking that I draw original research.

4.- Online sources

You insist that "Web - sources are not appropriate in controversial points" and "Online sources are considered inferior to published sources". You have totally the reason. This way, the Revista General de Información y Documentación (General Journal of Information and Documentation) is a publication (book) which is sold in Madrid, and at bottom of this page you will see the place where the journal is sold and how to subscribe in order that the journal is send to your house (I translate venta=sale, Suscripción=subscription, Intercambio=Exchange). The essay that I use of the Revista General de Información y Documentación quotes Anuario de Historia del Derecho Español (Yearbook of History of the Spanish Law). Nowadays the Yearbook is edited by the ministry of Justice and the Boletín Oficial del Estado=BOE (Official Bulletin of the State: organization that publishes the Spanish laws). For example, the volume of 2005 has 1176 pages and it is sold in the shop of the BOE, so it does not seem that this source is online, and the quoted volume (XXXVI) in the essay of the General Journal of Information and Documentation, is available for example in the library of the university of Valparaíso (Chile). This is the 36th volume, ans it appears Juana's oath as princess of Aragon and Carlos' oath as King together with his mother, like I wrote them before. I repeat that they appear in a secondary source of 1966 and you affirm that I draw original speculative research. Is it sufficient this to be a reliable source?.

As for this essay, it belongs to MAYURCA: Revista del Departament de Ciències Històriques i Teoria de les Arts. Universitat de les Illes Balears, (Journal of the Department of Historical Sciences and Theory of the Arts. University of the Balearic Islands) whose volumes are digitized in the Biblioteca Digital Científica de les Illes Balears (Digital Scientific Library of the Balearic Islands. (the information is in Catalan language).

THEREFORE: It is clear that the essays that I have used online are written publications by universities and according to Wikipedia:No original research the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. And it is a luck that in addition they are digitized because they spread researches through a rapid system, so that they do not remain stored in specializing libraries, but with the digitalization they are able to be used for the common knowledge, when the subject is not so well-known. If I have used them online it is because I wanted that anyone sees them, and it is not as your theses which are not seen, but you only tell them.

I believe firmly that you think that it is the same thing that Joanna was not a queen of Aragon and Joanna did not reign in Aragon; but it is different, because though Joanna did not reign in Aragon (she could not exercise as queen of Aragon), Joanna kept the legal title of queen of Aragon. I believe that you are obfuscated.

5.- You said Perhaps my 'reliable sources' ignore these specifications because your supposed specifications are fictional?

I am going to do a comparison. I have put a text of a collection of History of Spain (directed by es:Manuel Tuñón de Lara) that tells about the subject that we discuss, and it takes care of it in a single paragraph, but in the essay of Revista General de Información y Documentación] it is used 13 pages. This way, in the general historiography the importance is void or is is very scanty, whereas in the specific historiography the same matter develops.

THEREFORE: The subject of discussion is not fictitious since Spanish researchers (I am not that) have dedicated their time to publish in journals (written on paper) what they have gathered, and so, that mentioned essay is a secondary source.

6.- Language

You cannot claim that English historiography puts more interest than the Spanish historiography to write on history of Spain. I do not say that the amount in English should be scanty, but the Spanish researchers can can have more facility of access and understanding of primary and secondary sources, and the publication only in Spanish language supposes an important part to complete information.

I complain about that you are not care in these Spanish researches, but you must think that the Spanish is not Navajo language and there are million of persons who understand it, as I understand the English language, and so many other people can write it well, not like me, and they can accede likewise to this information, and investigate these Spanish sources to to ensure that they say what the editor is claiming to say. If you cannot do it, nobody has given you the authority it to prevent the others. Evidently the fact that you can't read Spanish does not invalidate you from editing articles on Spanish history, it invalidates that you have the absolute truth without accepting what is what the own Spaniards (especially, the Spanish researchers) say to whom so gracefully you have done the favor of writing them their own history.

7.- Wikipedia

You have said You can't argue that a point is true because other people on wikipedia do it, but before you had said Nor has anyone on wikipedia apart from you ever claimed she was Queen of Aragon. Really I do not understand what you want to say, but if there are another people in wikipedia with my viewpoint, certainly I have not made an original research.

If nobody in 4 years has thought over this, it is because the topic is totally insignificant. Really the sources that I contributed (they are online but they digitalizations of Journals published in university), I found them little time ago when I was looking for the prices of coins. In all that these essays I observed that they were developing and specifying what the historians were saying little, and I corrected in wikipedia in Spanish, where it has been accepted. In addition, if I had found it before I would have modified it before.

8.- Britannica

If I use the link that you have indicated me, Wikipedia:Original Research, I read Encyclopaedia Britannica and encyclopedias of similar quality can be regarded as reliable secondary sources instead of tertiary ones, but now you speculate that Britannica is not infallible, and writers did not put to particularly intensive degree of effort into it. Well then, I have no idea why Britannica is not infallible - nor will I commit Original Research by speculating - and I don't care. Perhaps I can speculate and I say that the editors have seen primary sources as laws or coins, or they have read the oath, or they have read Ferdinand II's will and they have written that Juana and Carlos were kings of Aragon, I don't know. Also I can say that your sources are not infallible.

9.- Finally

Your word is like god's word, somebody believes you or not; on the other hand, I have crumbled, crushed and justified fully the positions that they have been accepted in the Spanish wikipedia, and they are not my invention, in spite of you have tried repeatedly of despising them: if they are online, if they are ambiguous, if they are unknown. And it is not true, I have demonstrated it.

I think simply that it is all mentioned, and inasmuch as I am bored of this absurd discussion (in Spanish: discusión bizantina). Simply, I thank you because I did not write in English since a lot of time. And I do not edit in English wikipedia, because I do not know write well, I only can correct some details for certain articles. Trasamundo (talk) 21:10, 22 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

You are engaging in Original Research, and what's more you are hoisting yourself upon your own petard. Consider your claim regarding the coin: "If you look at the obverse side of the British coins, anyone will see ELIZABETH II D G REG F D, if I ask who is Elizabeth II the answer is undoubtedly the Queen; and you have reason, it is not necessary to analyze anything more, and nobody needs any secondary source to know it (except you), if I take the authentic coin of Aragon in 1520 we read IOANA ET:KARLOS:DEI: GRA:R:AR / +IOANA ET KAROLVS REX ARAGON and if I ask Who are IOANA and KAROLVS, the answer is the Kings of Aragon, so, in that epoch, they knew it and in this epoch we know it also."

"After Isabella's death, Ferdinand, though legally no more than regent in Castile, had coins minted with the inscription 'Ferdinand and Joanna, King and Queen of Castile, Leon and Aragon'." (JR Hale, Renaissance Europe, 1480-1520). By your logic, Joanna was thus co-monarch of Aragon with her father, because the description on the coins indicate that "in that epoch, they knew it and in this epoch we know it also."

Sadly for you, it is simply inconceivable that Joanna was 'Queen of Aragon' whilst Ferdinand II was still alive. Yet the coins say that she was. Result: the coins are not trustworthy, they are tools of propaganda, and those associating her with Charles are no more conclusive proof of their titles than those associating her with Ferdinand. What we get is an object lesson of why wikipedia discourages careless use of primary resources.

And what else do you have? A dodgy geocities website, written and posted by god-knows-who, and with nothing to speak for its reputation? A handful of sources, which either you 'can't quote', or which are too ambiguous, or which are inaccessible and which therefore we can't check and trust. Not buying it, I'm afraid. Michael Sanders 18:37, 23 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Oh my God. The text says: Medals were struck with political slogans. Even everyday coins could carry a political message. After Isabella's death Ferdinand, though legally no more than regent in Castile, had coins minted with the inscription 'Ferdinand and Joanna, King and Queen of Castile, Leon and Aragon'. I have said previously that the coin is a currency and it is not a medal. In addition, the coinage of Castile did not use the same procedure that in Navarre or in Aragon (except in the kingdom of Naples during Ferdinand the Catholic). In Navarre or in Aragon the coinage was much more rigid, in agreement with their laws and the Cortes.

In addition, my sources are accessible, inasmuch as they are both printed in paper and they are digitized.--Trasamundo (talk) 15:16, 24 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Like Hale says, coins can carry political messages. The coins he mentions Ferdinand striking were legal tender - and yet they carried slogans that were untrue. So why do you think that those Charles struck would be any more accurate or apolitical? Michael Sanders 15:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

I have found new sources to support that Juana was Queen of Aragon. In the book Fueros, observancias y actos de corte del reino de Aragón of the year 1866, which is scanned in the web page of the Library Saavedra Sajardo of the University of Murcia, in the page 64 the book indicates in modern Spanish: La serenísima señora Reina doña Juana, hija primogénita de los dichos Reyes Católicos, fue jurada por Reina, y Señora de los Reinos de Aragón y su Corona, para después de los felices y largos días del dicho Rey Católico su padre, en la ciudad de Zaragoza el año MDII: y por muerte del dicho señor Rey Católico su padre, sucedió en los dichos Reinos de Aragón, juntamente con el muy alto y muy poderoso Príncipe y Señor don Carlos, hijo suyo primogénito y del muy alto y muy poderoso señor don Felipe de austria hijo primogénito del Emperador Maximiliano, &c. Archiduque de Austria su marido, correinante con la dicha señora Reina su madre, por el impedimento de la dolencia que la dicha señora Reina padecía: fue electo en Rey de Romanos por la muerte del dicho Emperador Maximiliano su abuelo, el año MDXIX: y después coronado en Emperador en el año MDXXXIX en la ciudad de Bolonia por el Papa Clemente VII. Tuvo Cortes generales en la ciudad de Zaragoza en el año MDXIX.

Anyone can translate this text in English in Internet: The most serene Lady Queen dona Juana, first-born daughter of the above mentioned Catholics Kings, was sworn by Queen and Lady of the Kingdoms of Aragon and their crown, for after the happy and long days of the above mentioned Catholic King her father, in the city of Saragossa in the year MDII, and due to the death of the above mentioned Lord Catholic King her father, succeeded in the above mentioned Kingdoms of Aragon, together with the very high and very powerful Prince and Lord don Carlos, her first-born son and son of the very high and very powerful Lord don Philip of Austria, first-born son of the Emperor Maximiliano &c. Archduke of Austria her husband, reigning jointly with the above mentioned Lady Queen his mother, due to the impediment of the ailment that the above mentioned Lady Queen was suffering: he was elect King of the Romans by the death of the above mentioned Emperor Maximiliano, his grandfather, in the year MDXIX, and later he was crowned Emperor in the year MDXXXIX in the city of Bologna by the Pope Clement VII. He had General Cortes in the city of Saragossa in the year MDXIX.

Definitively that Carlos I was sworn co-regnant with his mother in the Kingdom of Aragon.

In addition, you User:Michaelsanders indicate as reliable source the article "Juana the Mad's Signature" from Sixteenth Century Journal, and in this article, Bethany Aram quotes in the page 337 and page 339 the Municipal Archive of Cordova, and from the same Municipal Archive of Cordova, I have showed this law that indicates that Juana and Carlos were Kings of Castile and Aragon, etc, as I indicated before. By this way, for Bethany Aram the Municipal Archive of Cordova is a reliable source, but this is not for you.

Finally in FILIPINIANA.NET they recognize the Queen Juana as queen of Aragon and Castille, and this is not my original research.

Trasamundo (talk) 00:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Michael, you say:

Reputable sources - online and published - say that Joanna was never Queen of Aragon - the succession passed directly from Ferdinand to Charles.

You also say:

Furthermore, Joanna is never referred to as being 'Queen of Aragon' in established historiography, which always describes Charles as directly succeeding his grandfather.

Can you provide any evidence of these assertions? Trasamundo has presented a fair number of sources that say Juana was queen of Aragon. You can't simply assert that reliable sources back you up. You have to say what they are. john k (talk) 17:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Soo, I might be right afterall. Joanna was indeed Queen regnant of Aragon. GoodDay (talk) 18:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

I have found another source that indicates that Juana was queen of Aragon: Historia general de España, Modesto Lafuente (Author), 1861. In the page 51 we read:
Todavía los aragoneses no habían reconocido a Carlos por rey, y a esto se encaminó (abril 1518) en compañía de su hermana doña Leonor, de muchos caballeros extranjeros y pocos castellanos. Al día siguiente de llegar a Calatayud juró en la iglesia colegial los fueros de la ciudad, y desde allí escribió a la de Zaragoza (3 de mayo) sobre la forma como deseaba que las Cortes le hiciesen el juramento. Con esto partió para aquella ciudad, donde hizo su entrada el 6 de mayo. Congregáronse seguidamente en Cortes los cuatro brazos del reino, pero lo acaecido en Castilla había hecho estar muy sobre sí a los aragoneses, naturalmente celosos de la conservación de sus fueros y libertades, y no estaban ellos tampoco acostumbrados a jurar como rey a un heredero en vida del que hubiesen reconocido como rey o reina legítima. Así pues costó a Carlos no poco trabajo, tiempo y esfuerzo, alcanzar que le juraran en la misma forma que Castilla, esto es, en unión con su madre, después de haber jurado él ampliamente guardar sus usos, libertades y privilegios. No menos le costó arrancar un servicio de doscientos mil ducados, y esto a condición de invertir esta suma en el pago de las deudas de la corona, tiempo hacía descuidadas, para que no fuese a parar a mano de extranjeros.
(The Aragonese people had not recognized Carlos as a king yet, and with that aim, took the road to (April 1518), in company of her sister Doña Leonor, of many foreign gentlemen and few Castilian people. The following day of arriving at Calatayud, he swore in the collegiate church the Fueros of the city, and he wrote to Saragossa (May 3) about the way as he wished that Cortes did the oath to him. So, he departed to that city, where he performed his entrance on May 6. Afterwards, the four arms (estates) of the kingdom put together, but the happened topics in Castile become careful to the Aragonese peole, naturally jealous of the conservation of their Fueros and freedoms, and they were not they either accustomed to swear as king an inheritor in life of whom they had recognized as legitimate king or queen. This way, Charles required not little work, time and effort, to reach that the Cortes alleged oath to him, as in Castile, namely, jointly with his mother, following his oath to guard widely the uses, freedoms and privileges of the kingdom. Also, it was difficult to him to extract a duty of two hundred thousand ducados, and this, with the condition of inverting this sum in the payment of the debts of the crown, neglected since a long time, in order that that amount did not go to foreigners' hand.)

And in the page 52 we read:
Faltábale a Carlos sólamente ser reconocido en Cataluña, y con este objeto partió y llegó a Barcelona entrado ya el año 1519 (15 de febrero). Esperábale allí más fuerte y más violenta oposición que la que había experimentado en Aragón y Castilla, y más insistencia en no quererle jurar en vida de su madre, tanto que se burlaban los catalanes de la blandura con que se habían allanado a hacerlo los aragoneses y castellanos. Sin embargo, el soborno y la intriga fueron templando poco a poco la dureza de aquella gente, y al fin acabaron por prestarle, aunque de mala gana, el mismo juramento que en los demás reinos, si bien, en lo de dar dinero fueron más parcos los catalenes, y se lo escatimaron más, no tanto por negárselo al rey, cuanto por mortificar a los avaros flamencos.
(It was lacking to Carlos to be recognized as king only in Catalonia, and with this aim he departed and arrived to Barcelona, already in the year 1519 (February 15). There, stronger and more violent opposition than the one that he had experienced in Aragón and Castile, was waiting for him, and more insistence in not wanting to swear him in life of his mother, so much that the Catalans were ridiculing about the softness that Aragonese and Castilians had submitted. Nevertheless, the bribe and the intrigue were moderating little by little the hardness of those people, and finally, they finished to allege him, though unwillingly, the same oath that in other kingdoms, although, in the subject of giving money, the Catalan people were more sparing, and they scrimped it more, not as much to deny it to the king, but affecting the greedy Flemings). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trasamundo (talk • contribs) 23:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC) Reply

I'm sorry. I forgot to sign and to put the link of quoted book. Here you are Trasamundo (talk) 00:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)Reply