Kommunal.az

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the subject of the article.

Add new text under old text. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Start a new topic Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 12 months

	French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 25, 2005.
Article milestones Date Process Result September 28, 2005 Peer review Reviewed October 8, 2005 Featured article candidate Promoted January 23, 2009 Featured article review Demoted A news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on February 22, 2004. Current status: Former featured article

This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Philosophy: Social and political / Religion Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Wikipedia. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Wikipedia.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Associated task forces: /  Social and political philosophy Philosophy of religion Human rights Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. France Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FranceWikipedia:WikiProject FranceTemplate:WikiProject FranceFrance Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Gender studies Mid‑importance This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Wikipedia. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. To-do list: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : see Unassessed Gender studies articles and Unknown-importance Gender studies articles Cleanup : edit to see Collaborate : see /Collaboration Copyedit : edit to see Deletion sorting : see /Sexuality and gender Expand : edit to see Infobox : see Gender studies articles needing infoboxes Merge : edit to see Notability : edit to see NPOV : edit to see Orphans : Brannon Masculinity Scale · Holy Virility · Media and gender · Michael Kaufman (author) · Women's education in Saudi Arabia Photo : see Wikipedia requested photographs of gender studies Split : History of feminism Stubs : see Gender studies stubs Translate : see /translation Update : edit to see Verify : Riot grrrl Needs attention : see Gender studies articles needing attention Law Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Religion Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Atheism Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Atheism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of atheism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AtheismWikipedia:WikiProject AtheismTemplate:WikiProject AtheismAtheism Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. For more information and how you can help, click the [Show] link opposite: If you would like to participate, you can edit this article and visit the project page. Quick help Project's main talk page Article layout Links to atheism-related information · List of free online resources Writing about religion · Article development Citing sources · Verifying sources · About original research Assume good faith · Be civil Recent activity Core articles the "Atheism" article Articles recently added to Category:Atheism To do edit history watch purge Join WikiProject atheism and be bold. Add a userbox to your page ({{User WikiProject Atheism}} or {{User WPA2}}) and attract potential members. Help with articles. See this month's adopt-an-article. Help out with this to-do list. Be consistent Use a "standard" layout for atheism-related articles (see layout style, "The perfect article" and Featured articles). Add Atheism info box to all atheism related talk pages (use {{WikiProject Atheism}} or see info box) Ensure atheism-related articles are members of Atheism by checking whether [[Category:Atheism]] has been added to atheism-related articles – and, where it hasn't, adding it. Maintenance, etc. Find sources for all positions of an article (see Citing sources and atheism references). Try to expand stubs. Ideas and theories about life, however, are prone to generating neologisms, so some stubs may be suitable for deletion (see deletion process). Watch the list of atheism-related articles and add to accordingly. Always write for an encyclopedia. Articles to improve Agnosticism Create Articles on notable atheists Expand an atheism stub Immediate attention State atheism needs a reassessment of its Importance level, as it has little to do with atheism and is instead an article about anti-theist/anti-religious actions of governments. False choice into False dilemma: discuss whether you are for or against this merge here Clarify references in Atheism using footnotes. Secular movement defines it as a being restricted to America in the 21st century. Sociology Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Politics Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Much of the text of the article is about the intents of those pushing for the law, and speculation about possible implementation decisions; all these go far beyond the actual text of the law, the essential part of which I translated. I also gave a pointer to an authoritative source for the text of the law.

All comments about non-legal sources (this includes politicians expressing themselves in unofficial documents) should make it clearly apparent that they are not authoritative. David.Monniaux 18:39, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I removed the notice to say that this page was listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion as it's been struck off as everyone voted to keep it. Here is a record of the votes and comments:

January 18 (2004)

• French headscarf law - this article duplicates a section in Islam in France. I don't think it is needed. Either it should go, or the section in the larger article should be reduced to just be a pointer. - UtherSRG 02:52, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  • I think it should be kept on the grounds it may be a worthwhile stub for any future developements due to this law. SimonMayer 02:56, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  • Usually, when I see an article I think worth, listed for deletion of vfd, I go help saving it by spending time adding to it. But here, I feel so abashed at the proposition of deleting such a topic that has been filling all our newspapers for more than 10 years, compared to the thousand of bullshit articles in this place, that I will not even make the effort. I am truely disgusted. I might even had considered listing the bullshit articles here for balance, but I think I would be loosing my time. Some people here, could consider spending their time writing articles. Horrible vfd place, I should not even consider coming here more than once a month, temple of the deletionism to its uggliest form. Anthere
  • Keep. Duplication suggests that it should be a redirect, not deleted. I don't really care whether you leave it duplicated, or remove it from Islam in France, or redirect it to Islam in France, but I can't think of any reason to delete it. -- Tim Starling 03:19, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep - definitely. Very broad subject that can easily be fleshed out. --snoyes 03:37, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, natch. This is a valid and interesting topic, much more can be written on it, and even if it were decided to put the text back into Islam in France, this would still serve as a worthwhile redirect. — No-One Jones (talk) 03:48, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  • Clearcut keep. There have been worldwide scarf-marches as a protest. Definitely deserves an independent article... (might as well suggest we should not have an article on zero tolerance -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 03:57, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, move stuff from Islam in France. Probably should rename this to reflect its not just applying to headscarves. -- Finlay McWalter 04:06, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep: topic is major enough to merit independent treatment. silsor 04:17, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)
  • Nuff said. I withdraw my proposal. The article stays, and I'll work on Islam in France to point better to it and not just duplicate the section. - UtherSRG 05:35, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Secretlondon 07:27, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep because it is a valid topic. SpellBott 09:55, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I was about to vote "keep" as well. --Fabiform 17:41, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It is widely believed to be specifically directed at French Muslim girls who dress according to hijab.

First, if it's widely believed then it should be easy to find at least one spokesman to quote. Second, the Wikipedia article on hijab said (if I recall correctly) that hijab means "modest attire". The sentence I deleted makes it sound like all modest attire for Muslim girls would be forbidden, and they'd have to wear mini-skirts and show their belly buttons like Britney Spears.

Let's repair this sentence and put it back. Does it mean head scarves, or what?

And is this a case of anti-Muslim or anti-Arab discrimination being written into law? If someone thinks so, let's quote them. Otherwise, it sounds more like 'contributor opinion' rather than encyclopedic fact. --Uncle Ed 20:10, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I think this week's Economist special report on this issue is quite good (someone else already put this as an external link). One person they quote, Khalil Merroun, rector of a large mosque in a town just south of Paris, says "It's not the crucifx or the kippa that is targeted, but Islam." I think the best translation is that it is a ban on "conspicious religious symbols" - the Economists also translates a passage as "of manifestly excessive dimension." As I said above, I believe the article is badly named at the moment French law to ban conspicious religious symbol is definitely more accurate. Yes hijab has the wider meaning that you refer to, and yes it is specifically the headscarf that would be covered by this law. If you want a quote that it is an anti-Muslim law from a non-Muslim try Ken Livingstone who said "President Jacques Chirac is playing a terribly, terribly dangerous game in the same way that many politicians felt they could pander to Hitler in the 20s. The only way to defeat Fascism in Europe is to stand against every demand they make. It is an anti-Muslim measure and will stir up anti-Muslim pressure." Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 20:46, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Pete. I moved the article to "conspicuous".

Anyway, I clearly don't know enough about the issue to be writing about it. All I have are questions. And, yes, it does seem that the law -- despite the appearance of being a general prohibition smacks of a deliberate targeting at a Muslim or Arab display. As if to say, assimilate or else!

"Bavaria's rightwing education minister, Monika Hohlmeier, claimed the head scarf was increasingly used as a political symbol. Wearing Christian crosses or Jewish symbols was acceptable, she added - an assertion that invited accusations of double standards."

I'd like the article to address the extent to which the wearing of the headscarf is a political statement ("we are not like the rest of you; we refuse to assimilate").

Also, to what degree is it a religous requirement, and who says so? Is it "clearly mentioned in the Koran"? Girls must cover their hair, ears and throat, showing no part of their head except the face?

Is it a "cultural custom", like "I don't want anyone seeing how pretty my daughter is; she might marry outside her faith."? Or a "control the women" thing, as in "We mark our women like a herdsman branding his cattle; every girl wearing a scarf is some man's property."

It's too big an issue for me: that's why I want someone else to write the article: so I can read it and learn! --Uncle Ed 21:36, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I am in the same boat as you Ed. It is clearly an interesting subject, and I fear I wouldn't be doing it justice by simply parroting what I've read in weekly newspapers. Having said that, I think it would be right to mention, particularly in this English language article, that France has been secular for a long time (goes back to the Revolution) and this law is an extension of that. Saying "God bless America" is the most natural thing in the world for Americans to hear Bush say, but if Chirac said a similar thing about France I think it would be a headline in Le Monde. Here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3325285.stm - is a primer on France's secular history. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 22:23, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I moved the bit about teachers out of the reference to that specific survey - the version of the survey printed in The Economist didn't mention teachers. Does the original survey mention teachers specifically, anyone know? Where did the bit on teachers come from, do we have a source we can reference? - David Gerard 11:02, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)

I've taken out the teachers for now. If anyone has a survey reference mentioning the teachers, put it back in - David Gerard 00:42, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

I've found a refernece. I searched le parisien, here's the search result (I couldn't access the article for free):

Les profs favorables à la loi, 05/02/2004

LES ENSEIGNANTS attendent avec impatience la loi interdisant à l'école les signes religieux. Pour la première fois, un sondage CSA, réalisé pour « le Monde » et « la Vie », le démontre : 76 % des profs se déclarent favorables au texte (lors d'une enquête effectuée en décembre auprès de l'ensemble d...

Teachers in favour of the law February 5 2004

Teachers are looking forward to the law banning religious symbols in schools. For the first time, a CSA survey for "le Monde" and "la Vie" shows 76% of teachers say that they are in favour of the text (during a survey taken in December to most...

I think that le Monde has more accessible archives, I'll go and see... fabiform | talk 05:35, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I haven't had any luck finding it in le monde or le monde diplomatique. I give up! I assume that the snippet above is all we really neaded? fabiform | talk 05:55, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

A reference would be good - is it the same survey quoted in The Economist? But it's substantiation! - David Gerard 15:28, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

Hmm? What do you mean by a reference? fabiform | talk 15:33, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I mean a weblink. Still I've put in a sentence as is anyway - David Gerard 15:34, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

I could give you the link to the page where it asks you to pay before you can view the article if you like. This is bugging me again. Perhaps I'll find a better source somewhere else? fabiform | talk 15:43, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If we can find a better link, good. Or a reference to the newspaper date and page. Whatever you think is a workable idea, I suppose, you went and found the ref! - David Gerard 16:24, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I've already given you the newspaper name and date of the article above, no idea of the page number though. But...

I've found a different reference for you! http://www.laic.info/ - very good site for this article.

84% des enseignants pour l'exclusion d'une élève voilée (sondage) - AFP [1] (4th February 2004)

84% of Teachers in Favour of the Exclusion of Veiled Students (survey) - APF

84% des enseignants se prononcent pour l'exclusion d'une élève voilée, dont 19% sans même chercher de compromis, selon un sondage CSA réalisé pour le Monde et la Vie et publié dans le quotidien de mercredi, daté jeudi.

84% of teachers report that they are in favour of the exclusion of a veiled [female] student, of whom 19% said they would not even try to compromise, according to a CSA survey carried out for le Monde and la Vie and published in the [daily] newspaper on Wednesday, dated Thursday.

Interrogés sur leur attitude une fois la loi sur la laïcité votée, 65% des enseignants déclarent vouloir d'abord chercher un compromis mais exclure l'élève en cas d'échec. 19% disent exiger le retrait et exclure l'élève si elle conserve son voile. 15% en revanche sont contre toute exclusion.

Questioned on their attitude once the law on secularity had been passed, 65% teachers said that they would first wish to try and find a compromise but would exclude the pupil if necessary. 19% said they would demand the pupil remove her veil and exclude her if she failed to do so. 15% on the other hand were opposed to any exclusions.

D'autre part, les enseignants sont massivement favorables (78%) à une loi interdisant les signes et tenues manifestant ostensiblement l'appartenance religieuse des élèves. Ils sont également favorables (72%) à l'interdiction de port d'insignes politiques. 57% préfereraient le mot visible à ostentatoires (16%) ou ostensible (16% également).

On the other hand, teachers are massively in favour (78%) of a law banning conspicuous clothing or other signs which identify which religion a pupil belongs to. They are also in favour (72%) of banning the wearing of political symbols. 57% preferred the word "visible" to "ostentatious" [ostentatoires] (16%) or "conspicuous" [ostensible] (also 16%).

Toutefois, les enseignants ne placent la laïcité qu'en onzième position (14%) de leurs préoccupations derrière l'échec scolaire (en tête avec 58%), la défense du service public, les relations enseignants-parents, les effectifs, les programmes, la sécurité....

However, teachers only ranked secularity in 11th place (14%) of their preoccupations, behind failing in school [I think this means pupils dropping out etc, literally "school failure"?] (at the top with 58&), defending the public service, parent-teacher relations, pupil numbers [attendance or class sizes?], the curriculum, safety...

De plus, ils considèrent (59%) que parler du voile à l'école est une façon de ne pas aborder les vrais problèmes qui se posent à l'enseignement.

Moreover, they consider (59%) that focusing on the veil in schools is a way of avoiding the real issues facing education.

Ce sondage a été réalisé du 22 au 24 janvier auprès d'un échantillon représentatif de 504 enseignants de collèges et lycées publics.

This survey was carried out from the 22 to 24th January [2004] using a representative selection of 504 teachers from state-funded secondary schools [collèges et lycées].

Copyright - AFP

- Well there you have it. My rough and ready translation by the way. fabiform | talk 16:44, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Just put that link in the article. Very good! - David Gerard 02:28, Feb 15, 2004 (UTC)

http://www.laic.info/Members/webmestre/Revue_de_presse.2004-02-04.2241/view is now a closed link (403 Forbidden). How annoying! I've left it for now, but do we have a live link that doesn't require payment? - David Gerard 14:34, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

It still works for me. fabiform | talk 14:40, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

OK, if it only hates me then that's good for everyone else ;-) - David Gerard 14:55, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

I hope it's not just stuck in my cache. I shift-refreshed though, and it still worked! fabiform | talk 15:39, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'm now at a different machine and it works fine for me. - David Gerard 20:26, Feb 16, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Fab.

I need you to explain exactly what you're saying here:

They have highlighted the tensions provoked by the revendication of religious and group identities, like the formation of clans, for instance. They regret frequent violence toward themselves as well, in particular toward female teachers.

I don't know what you mean by "revendication" - do you mean the creating/formation; the claims/demands; reclaiming, etc?

revendication is claiming, demanding. Such as a terrorist group who "revendicate" the right for Corsica to be independant. In our case, typical religious "revendications" are demanding the right for women to be covered, demanding no pork in school food (this has been the case for a long time), asking that girls have a female teacher, in particular in gymnastic or at the pool, sometimes demanding that girls or separated from boys. For other religious groups, it might be not to study on a specific day (like saturday), or on celebration days (the non catholic celebration days). It might be the right to be able to make 6 prayers per day. Or that some topics (such as sexual education) are removed from programs.

group identities is a bit more complicated. But suffice it to say that in some places, kids may be from more than 10 different origins in one classroom. Among teenagers, a cultural identification happens, such as wearing specific clothes in a specific way, or using specific language (which is frankly not pure french), or listening to specific music. These groups request to be recognised as cultural units, with specific rights, while school is on the contrary supposed to make no difference between pupils. School teachers are often overwhelmed by this, and when a group of teenagers gang against her in class, or after class, verbally or physically attack her saying she is racist or does not respect cultural diversity, well, that is tough :-) Especially since teachers are more trained in the spirit of gender equality and laicity, than in extremism and bullying.

And the word "clan" is mostly used to mean a Scottish family... do you mean a "gang" (this could imply that they are violent), or would "group" be better? So far I've only done the "Background and Stasi Commission" section. Cheers, fabiform | talk 09:53, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC).

yeah, you are right. Gang is the word I often saw. Gang definitly it is. Typically...when a girl refuses to wear the veil in a city, some guys will consider she is then "free" to use and an offense to Allah, and should not complain to whatever happens to her. They pick her up, and lead her at the lowest level of buildings, and will rape her in turn. Often, these are groups of 6 to 10 individuals. Sometimes, there is even the boyfriend of the girl. We call this "tournantes" or "viol en réunion" (that is the legal term). This also happens in schools. In 1998/9, 556 affairs of sexual agressions (12% or rape) were reported in school. Some girls are also sold for a couple of euros, beaten. This is rarely done by just one guy. It is team work. If the girl behave properly (understand, she is not in jean with nake head, she does not stay out, she does not provoke guys) she will be respected. Some mothers get so scared for their girls, that they ask her to wear the veil to protect them. These mothers were those who fought for their rights 15 years ago. 15 years ago, none of them were wearing veils (but they were often submitted to forced weddings very early, I have a couple of painful memories for some of my friends then, I went to a city college). These phenomenons toward women are recent. And are frequently stirred up by extremist groups underground in the city. You initially get a group of bored and rather unhappy kids, then you get gangs; then some switch to more classical illegality, with drug sales in school, use of weapons, intimidation, car stealing and such.

http://www.drmcc.org/html/archives/memoires_theses/vincent_tremollet/zone-05.html http://www.nouvelobs.com/articles/p1947/a12137.html http://maisondesfemmes.free.fr/revue/violences/viol/recherche.htm

The Oxford English Dictionary defines "revendication" as "the action of claiming back or recovering by a formal claim"; the word is last cited in the 1850s, so it's a bit out of date. The OED definition doesn't seem to be what is meant in the original text. The wordreference.com French-English dictionary translates it as "demand", or in law, "claim." This tracks with the description given above and with general French usage on the Web per a Google search on "revendication." A literal translation doesn't capture the context in English, so I've replaced "revendicatif" with the word "provocative." Hope this helps. Dave Kielpinski — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.239.44.140 (talk) 26 October 2005

There are a few issues I'm curious about and am not sure are answered in the article.

What happens if Muslim girls do not attend the public schools because of the ban. Are they allowed to be unschooled? Are they allowed or required to attend a private (presumably Muslim) school? Is it true that Catholic schools are partly funded by the state? Are other religious or private schools funded by the state? How is the issue of "religious obligation" dealt with--i.e., dress which can reasonably argued is non-optional for a religious practitioner (e.g., heads covered outside for Jewish men or turbans for Sikhs)? -- Cecropia | Talk 22:12, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What happens if Muslim girls do not attend the public schools because of the ban. Are they allowed to be unschooled?

no, it is mandatory up to 16. They can go to a private school accepting them or follow school by postmail

Education is compulsory until the age of 16. This does not imply the children going to a school – home schooling is legally possible, though discouraged. David.Monniaux 22:36, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Are they allowed or required to attend a private (presumably Muslim) school?

They are so few muslim schools that this is hardly an option. Among private schools (the majority of which are catholics), some are funded by the state (and will likely follow the law) and some are not (and may have different interpretations ?)

Is it true that Catholic schools are partly funded by the state?

Some are yes. My kids are in a private school. It is funded by the state. In west of France, half of 6-10 schools are private. Most non funded are terribly expensive

Private schools that apply the same curriculum as public schools and accept certain rules (like not forcing religious education on students) are funded by the state (even some of their personnel is actually state personnel).

Most people who use private schools don't do so out of belief, but because they don't like the public schools in their area. David.Monniaux 22:36, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Are other religious or private schools funded by the state?

Most private schools are catholics right now. Afaik, they accept all kids, regardless of their religion

They actually have to if they want to be funded.

There are publicly-funded protestant and Jewish schools.

How is the issue of "religious obligation" dealt with--i.e., dress which can reasonably argued is non-optional for a religious practitioner (e.g., heads covered outside for Jewish men or turbans for Sikhs)? -- Cecropia | Talk 22:12, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

sorry, did not understand the question really. If you ask how it is dealt in private school...well, some kids in my kids school are head covered. The number of Sikhs is very very limited. SweetLittleFluffyThing

In the U.S., additional consideration is often allowed for issues of "religious obligation." This means that if someone believably must do something for religious reasons, they won't be prevented except for overriding reasons. An example of this is that very religious Jewish men must wear a head covering when outdoors (not necessarily a yarmulka), and must not work on the Sabbath (except in an emergency). It is not considered optional--i.e., an expression of faith, it is deemed a requirement. There was a case in NYC schools (IIRC) of whether Sikh students could carry a small required ceremonial dagger under their clothing, violating weapon laws in school. I don't know how that turned out. To try to put American law in the French context, if Muslim girls wore head coverings to express their religious identity, they could be prevented from doing if it were considered important and non-discriminatory, but if their faith required it, it would create a much more legally difficult situation. -- 23:19, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The reference point on that is the 1789 Declaration

"Article X - No one may be questioned about his opinions, [and the] same [for] religious [opinions], provided that their manifestation does not trouble the public order established by the law."

My understanding is that the government may validly prohibit some religious manifestation (and not some belief) provided that it can make a valid point of maintaining public order (here: avoiding religious quarrels and peer pressure in order to ensure the good workings of public education). As far as I know, the European Court of Human Rights has already followed such reasoning before, for Turkey.

My understanding is that American law creates some kind of exemption from normal rules for religious activities, while France does not. Another point is that the French government does not grant any recognition to any religion [except for Alsace-Moselle and military chaplains], thus determining that something is some "essential religious requirement" and not some "religious display" would be extremely complex (i.e. it's largely a matter of theology, over which different people of the same religion may have different ideas, thus it would somehow imply recognizing some "official" opinion etc...).

I have absolutely no idea as to what reading the courts will make of "conspicuous" and "public order". This may conceivably range from the possibility of banning any visible symbol to only banning symbols used in active prozelytizing. David.Monniaux 23:43, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't think there is a significant number of Sikhs in France outside of Paris. To be fair, apparently nobody thought about them until they pointed out possible problems with their beliefs.

Any comment on that is bound to be speculative, since the law is vague, not yet applied, and the executive decisions on it are apparently fairly vague too. Wait until the first disagreements arise. David.Monniaux 22:36, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Noting the coincidence of dates, did the Dreyfus affair have any influence on the decision to pass the original law? -- Cecropia | Talk 06:03, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

(I'm not an expert on French Third Republic politics. I think so, to some extent. To summarize, before the First World War, the politics of the Third Republic were polarized between the "clericals" and the "anti-clericals" – the former pushing for the involvement of the Roman Catholic Church in education and politics, the latter wanting a wall of separation. If I remember well, the law of the time was a Concordat regime whereby the French government subsidized the Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Calvinist and Jewish religions, a regime which is now still current in Alsace-Moselle (and military chaplains, for all I know). Since Roman Catholicism was the religion of the vast majority of the population, it had the lion's share of the support.

Anticlericalism is not, per se, a movement of rejection of religion (though many anticlericals were certainly against religion, i.e. secularists), but only a movement of rejection of the influence of religion and the clergy in the public sphere.

The Catholic right, in those days, tended to be royalist, antisemitic and clerical. The Dreyfus affair was largely a result of cabals mounted by the Catholic right, and a visible episode of this important political struggle.

The 1905 law was one of the last nails in the coffin of clericalism; and I indeed think that the Clerical Right largely decredibilized itself with the Dreyfus Affair.

The last serious action of the reactionary right (nostalgy for royalism, a Catholic, rural society, authoritarianism...) was Vichy France. Their

However, I'm not a historian and I would be more comfortable if somebody more qualified wrote about that. David.Monniaux 16:01, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• if parents force a girl to wear a headscarf, they may pull her out of the schools that might have freed them

I don't understand it: Who is "them" and how are they being "freed"?--Malcohol 12:39, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I suspect that who wrote this text meant that schools, providing a fair and balanced education vested with Republican values, would free girls from patriarcal mores. Or that the intents of those who passed the law were such.

I rephrased the sentence. David.Monniaux 09:17, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The external links section is vastly overpopulated, and improper. There should be maybe one or two links here: the law, either the Legifrance link or another one, and the Stasi commission. Nothing else belongs here, per WP:EL, as they are just related documents; they should either be moved to § Further reading (new section) per WP:FURTHER, or deleted. Mathglot (talk) 06:57, 9 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]